labeling boys as "fags"
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labeling boys as "fags"
I just found an interesting online article whose text I've copied and pasted below. I will post comments and observations of my own later when I have time.
http://www.alternet.org/sex/65697?page=entire
"Fag" Is Turning into a High School Insult for Any Guy Who Doesn't Play Football
The author of the new book, "Dude, You're a Fag," explores how homophobia operates in high school.
October 20, 2007 |
"I'm talking like sixth grade, I started being called a fag. Fifth grade I was called a fag. Third grade I was called a fag," seventeen-year-old *Ricky recounted as we sat at a plastic picnic table outside of a fast food restaurant in California's Sacramento delta region. Though he experienced this type of harassment throughout elementary and junior high school, Ricky said that the threats intensified as he entered *River High School.
At "all the schools the verbal part . . . the slang, 'the fag,' the 'fuckin' freak,' 'fucking fag,' all that stuff is all the same. But this is the only school that throws water bottles, throws rocks, and throws food." Harassment like this hounded him out of his school's homecoming football game. "Two guys started walking up to get tickets said, 'There's that fucking fag.'" During the game boys threw balloons and bottles at Ricky along with comments like, "What the fuck is that fag doing here? That fag has no right to be here."
While this singular event stands out as particularly hate filled, Ricky's story also illustrates the larger problems of homophobia and gender-based teasing in high school. Homophobic taunting is especially intense during adolescence, a time when sexuality and romance are at the fore of social life. For boys, and not just those who are branded as gay, walking through a hallway is like running a gauntlet of homophobic insults as their male classmates imitate effeminate men and hurl homophobic slurs. My book, Dude, You're a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School, examines this ubiquitous homophobia. During my year and a half of research at River High, I found that these comments, when coming from and directed at boys, often have as much to do with shoring up definitions of masculinity as they do with reinforcing notions of "normal" heterosexuality.
This is particularly true of the slur "fag." While the term "gay" is frequently used as a synonym for stupid, it lacks the gender loaded skew of the term "fag." Oftentimes when boys call someone a "fag" they simultaneously imitate effeminate men (in other words, behavior they consider to be "fag-like"). Their homophobic comments, jokes, and interactions, in a sense, serve to punish others into behaving in stereotypically masculine ways. Though homophobia is usually thought of as fear of same sex attraction, in high school, boys' homophobia is also about policing gendered norms.
At River High I saw and heard boys imitate effeminate behavior and hurl the word "fag" so frequently at one another that I came to call it a "fag discourse." Invoking this epithet and joking about "fags" were not just random incidents, but systemic and well accepted ways for teenage boys to communicate. Boys talked about others they considered to be "fags," made jokes about unmasculine mannerisms, imitated those mannerisms, and used the term to insult one another both jokingly and seriously. They lisped, pretended to lust after men, and drew laughs from primarily male onlookers. They frantically lobbed the epithet at one another, in a sort of compulsive name calling ritual. Because the "fag" slur is and isn't about sexual desire, both self-identified gay boys and heterosexual boys were subject to the label for failing at stereotypically masculine tasks or revealing, in any way, weakness or femininity.
Gendered Homophobia
When I asked boys at River High why they so frequently deployed the term and regularly imitated what they saw as unmasculine men, many readily answered that such homophobia was simply part of what it meant to be a teenage guy. *Keith explained, "I think guys are just homophobic." Regardless of assertions like these, their homophobia, for the most part, did not extend to girls. While *Jake told me that he didn't like gay people, he quickly added, "Lesbians, okay, that's good!" *Ray explained the seeming discrepancy to me: "To see two hot chicks banging bodies in a bed, that's like every guy's fantasy right there. It's the truth. I've heard it so many times."
What did the boys mean when they call another boy a "fag"? *Jeremy told me, "To call someone gay or fag is like the lowest thing you can call someone. Because that's like saying that you're nothing." Though many boys described the widespread acceptance of homophobia at their school, they also said the term "fag" did not necessarily have sexual implications. *Darnell told me, "It doesn't even have anything to do with being gay." Similarly *J.L. said, "Fag, seriously it has nothing to do with sexual preference at all. You could just be calling somebody an idiot, you know?" As *David put it, "Being gay is just a lifestyle. It's someone you choose to sleep with. You can still throw around a football and be gay." In other words, a guy could be gay so long as he acted sufficiently masculine.
When boys, straight or gay, didn't behave in a sufficiently masculine manner, they risked being hit with the "fag discourse." When I asked *Ben, "What kind of things do guys get called a fag for?" he answered, "Anything ... literally, anything. Like you were trying to turn a wrench the wrong way, 'Dude, you're such a fag.' Even if a piece of meat drops out of your sandwich, 'You fag!'" While Ben thought that a guy could be called a "fag" for "anything ... literally anything," specific behaviors, when enacted by most boys, almost always triggered a round of the discourse. Boys who exhibited stupidity, emotions, or incompetence; cared too much about clothing; touched another guy; or liked to dance were vulnerable to being labeled a "fag." However, given the extent of its deployment and the laundry list of behaviors that could get a boy in trouble, it is no wonder that Ben felt a boy could be called a "fag" for "anything." This range of risky behaviors made the specter of the "fag" a powerful disciplinary mechanism. It was fluid enough that boys policed their behaviors out of fear of being called a "fag" and definitive enough so that boys recognized unmasculine behaviors and strived to avoid them.
The "fag discourse" usually came in the form of teasing and jokes (although, as Ricky's experience illustrates, it also appeared as harassment undergirded by the threat of violence). Often the word itself wasn't even spoken. The image of a "fag" as an unmasculine man was so common among the teenage boys, they could initiate the discourse through humorous imitations or allusions. One day in auto-shop *Jay was rummaging through a junk-filled car in the parking lot. He poked his head out of the trunk and asked, "Where are *Craig and *Brian?" *Neil responded with "I think they are over there," pointing, then thrusting his hips and pulling his arms back and forth. The boys in auto shop laughed. Because the "fag discourse" was so familiar, the other boys immediately understood that Neil was indicating that Craig and Brian were having sex. In this case, something as innocent as being alone with another guy was enough to be teased.
Compared to Ricky's experience at the football game this discourse seems relatively mild and lighthearted. Both Craig and Brian were stereotypical masculine boys. They may have been labeled as "fags" because they were alone together, but odds are their classmates wouldn't throw water bottles at them. On the other hand, for boys who didn't consistently exhibit typical masculine behavior, River High was a dangerous place, as Ricky's experience shows. Because Ricky was a dancer, identified as gay, had a kind and gentle spirit, sometimes wore makeup, and sported shoulder length hair, he spent his days in school preparing for the next attack. He ended up dropping out of River High in part because of the rampant harassment he suffered and the administration's refusal to protect him.
Education and Legislation
This sort of homophobic- and gender-based teasing and harassment is not unique to River High. In the spring of 1999, the problems associated with adolescent masculinity captured the national spotlight when two teenage gunmen opened fire on students at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, had been relentlessly teased for being "fags" or "gay," though neither boy identified as homosexual. In another case, several boys killed seventeen-year-old Gwen Araujo in the fall of 2002 in Fremont, California. She was savagely murdered after the boys she had sex with discovered she was biologically male.
Though these two incidents were unusual, many adolescent boys have been the victims of similar violence that never gets reported. Such boys' experiences are likely to mirror those of a teen named Aaron Yays, a New York middle-schooler. Aaron was teased mercilessly and suffered repeated beatings from other students for his interest in figure skating. As Aaron's experience indicates, even subtle gender transgressions make teenage boys susceptible to homophobic taunts, jokes, and violence. While teasing may be part of a normal American adolescent masculinity, the "fag discourse" carries with it the potential for physical violence not necessarily found in other milder sorts of adolescent verbal jockeying.
Parents, students, and legislators have started to address this sort of harassment. Defending their sons' rights to be free from homophobic slurs, parents have initiated lawsuits in order to protect boys who, for example, wear dresses, sport ponytails, or publicly identify as gay. Students have formed clubs such as Gay/Straight Alliances in order to support each other in their differences. California is one of the few states to take a proactive legislative approach to the problem of homophobic harassment in high school. The legislature passed the groundbreaking Assembly Bill 537, The California Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act, in 2000. This bill prohibits discrimination in schools based on perceived or actual sexual or gender identities. The District of Columbia, Maine, Minnesota, and New Jersey have also enacted laws that prohibit harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in school.
Unfortunately, as Ricky's experience demonstrates, these laws are not always enforced. Boys' homophobic harassment, sex talk, and predatory behavior have become so normalized that oftentimes adults don't identify it as harassment. Parents, teachers, school administrators, and other people who work with youth need to recognize these behaviors and hold them accountable, rather than turn a blind eye to boys who hurl the "fag" epithet. It's not enough to reprimand or discipline a boy for calling someone a "fag." To simply punish students who are harassing other students without explaining larger issues of power and inequality leaves them confused, angry, and unsure of what they did wrong. As the late educator and activist Eric Rofes wrote, we need to make our schools "safe for sissies." In doing so we can make them safer places for all boys.
*Names have been changed.
C.J. Pascoe is a postdoctoral scholar at the Institute for the Study of Social Change at the University of California, Berkeley. Her recent book on gender and identity in high school, "Dude, You're a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School" was published by the University of California Press. Her current research project entitled Living Digital examines how teenagers navigate digital technology and how new media has become a central part of contemporary teen culture.
http://www.alternet.org/sex/65697?page=entire
"Fag" Is Turning into a High School Insult for Any Guy Who Doesn't Play Football
The author of the new book, "Dude, You're a Fag," explores how homophobia operates in high school.
October 20, 2007 |
"I'm talking like sixth grade, I started being called a fag. Fifth grade I was called a fag. Third grade I was called a fag," seventeen-year-old *Ricky recounted as we sat at a plastic picnic table outside of a fast food restaurant in California's Sacramento delta region. Though he experienced this type of harassment throughout elementary and junior high school, Ricky said that the threats intensified as he entered *River High School.
At "all the schools the verbal part . . . the slang, 'the fag,' the 'fuckin' freak,' 'fucking fag,' all that stuff is all the same. But this is the only school that throws water bottles, throws rocks, and throws food." Harassment like this hounded him out of his school's homecoming football game. "Two guys started walking up to get tickets said, 'There's that fucking fag.'" During the game boys threw balloons and bottles at Ricky along with comments like, "What the fuck is that fag doing here? That fag has no right to be here."
While this singular event stands out as particularly hate filled, Ricky's story also illustrates the larger problems of homophobia and gender-based teasing in high school. Homophobic taunting is especially intense during adolescence, a time when sexuality and romance are at the fore of social life. For boys, and not just those who are branded as gay, walking through a hallway is like running a gauntlet of homophobic insults as their male classmates imitate effeminate men and hurl homophobic slurs. My book, Dude, You're a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School, examines this ubiquitous homophobia. During my year and a half of research at River High, I found that these comments, when coming from and directed at boys, often have as much to do with shoring up definitions of masculinity as they do with reinforcing notions of "normal" heterosexuality.
This is particularly true of the slur "fag." While the term "gay" is frequently used as a synonym for stupid, it lacks the gender loaded skew of the term "fag." Oftentimes when boys call someone a "fag" they simultaneously imitate effeminate men (in other words, behavior they consider to be "fag-like"). Their homophobic comments, jokes, and interactions, in a sense, serve to punish others into behaving in stereotypically masculine ways. Though homophobia is usually thought of as fear of same sex attraction, in high school, boys' homophobia is also about policing gendered norms.
At River High I saw and heard boys imitate effeminate behavior and hurl the word "fag" so frequently at one another that I came to call it a "fag discourse." Invoking this epithet and joking about "fags" were not just random incidents, but systemic and well accepted ways for teenage boys to communicate. Boys talked about others they considered to be "fags," made jokes about unmasculine mannerisms, imitated those mannerisms, and used the term to insult one another both jokingly and seriously. They lisped, pretended to lust after men, and drew laughs from primarily male onlookers. They frantically lobbed the epithet at one another, in a sort of compulsive name calling ritual. Because the "fag" slur is and isn't about sexual desire, both self-identified gay boys and heterosexual boys were subject to the label for failing at stereotypically masculine tasks or revealing, in any way, weakness or femininity.
Gendered Homophobia
When I asked boys at River High why they so frequently deployed the term and regularly imitated what they saw as unmasculine men, many readily answered that such homophobia was simply part of what it meant to be a teenage guy. *Keith explained, "I think guys are just homophobic." Regardless of assertions like these, their homophobia, for the most part, did not extend to girls. While *Jake told me that he didn't like gay people, he quickly added, "Lesbians, okay, that's good!" *Ray explained the seeming discrepancy to me: "To see two hot chicks banging bodies in a bed, that's like every guy's fantasy right there. It's the truth. I've heard it so many times."
What did the boys mean when they call another boy a "fag"? *Jeremy told me, "To call someone gay or fag is like the lowest thing you can call someone. Because that's like saying that you're nothing." Though many boys described the widespread acceptance of homophobia at their school, they also said the term "fag" did not necessarily have sexual implications. *Darnell told me, "It doesn't even have anything to do with being gay." Similarly *J.L. said, "Fag, seriously it has nothing to do with sexual preference at all. You could just be calling somebody an idiot, you know?" As *David put it, "Being gay is just a lifestyle. It's someone you choose to sleep with. You can still throw around a football and be gay." In other words, a guy could be gay so long as he acted sufficiently masculine.
When boys, straight or gay, didn't behave in a sufficiently masculine manner, they risked being hit with the "fag discourse." When I asked *Ben, "What kind of things do guys get called a fag for?" he answered, "Anything ... literally, anything. Like you were trying to turn a wrench the wrong way, 'Dude, you're such a fag.' Even if a piece of meat drops out of your sandwich, 'You fag!'" While Ben thought that a guy could be called a "fag" for "anything ... literally anything," specific behaviors, when enacted by most boys, almost always triggered a round of the discourse. Boys who exhibited stupidity, emotions, or incompetence; cared too much about clothing; touched another guy; or liked to dance were vulnerable to being labeled a "fag." However, given the extent of its deployment and the laundry list of behaviors that could get a boy in trouble, it is no wonder that Ben felt a boy could be called a "fag" for "anything." This range of risky behaviors made the specter of the "fag" a powerful disciplinary mechanism. It was fluid enough that boys policed their behaviors out of fear of being called a "fag" and definitive enough so that boys recognized unmasculine behaviors and strived to avoid them.
The "fag discourse" usually came in the form of teasing and jokes (although, as Ricky's experience illustrates, it also appeared as harassment undergirded by the threat of violence). Often the word itself wasn't even spoken. The image of a "fag" as an unmasculine man was so common among the teenage boys, they could initiate the discourse through humorous imitations or allusions. One day in auto-shop *Jay was rummaging through a junk-filled car in the parking lot. He poked his head out of the trunk and asked, "Where are *Craig and *Brian?" *Neil responded with "I think they are over there," pointing, then thrusting his hips and pulling his arms back and forth. The boys in auto shop laughed. Because the "fag discourse" was so familiar, the other boys immediately understood that Neil was indicating that Craig and Brian were having sex. In this case, something as innocent as being alone with another guy was enough to be teased.
Compared to Ricky's experience at the football game this discourse seems relatively mild and lighthearted. Both Craig and Brian were stereotypical masculine boys. They may have been labeled as "fags" because they were alone together, but odds are their classmates wouldn't throw water bottles at them. On the other hand, for boys who didn't consistently exhibit typical masculine behavior, River High was a dangerous place, as Ricky's experience shows. Because Ricky was a dancer, identified as gay, had a kind and gentle spirit, sometimes wore makeup, and sported shoulder length hair, he spent his days in school preparing for the next attack. He ended up dropping out of River High in part because of the rampant harassment he suffered and the administration's refusal to protect him.
Education and Legislation
This sort of homophobic- and gender-based teasing and harassment is not unique to River High. In the spring of 1999, the problems associated with adolescent masculinity captured the national spotlight when two teenage gunmen opened fire on students at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The shooters, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, had been relentlessly teased for being "fags" or "gay," though neither boy identified as homosexual. In another case, several boys killed seventeen-year-old Gwen Araujo in the fall of 2002 in Fremont, California. She was savagely murdered after the boys she had sex with discovered she was biologically male.
Though these two incidents were unusual, many adolescent boys have been the victims of similar violence that never gets reported. Such boys' experiences are likely to mirror those of a teen named Aaron Yays, a New York middle-schooler. Aaron was teased mercilessly and suffered repeated beatings from other students for his interest in figure skating. As Aaron's experience indicates, even subtle gender transgressions make teenage boys susceptible to homophobic taunts, jokes, and violence. While teasing may be part of a normal American adolescent masculinity, the "fag discourse" carries with it the potential for physical violence not necessarily found in other milder sorts of adolescent verbal jockeying.
Parents, students, and legislators have started to address this sort of harassment. Defending their sons' rights to be free from homophobic slurs, parents have initiated lawsuits in order to protect boys who, for example, wear dresses, sport ponytails, or publicly identify as gay. Students have formed clubs such as Gay/Straight Alliances in order to support each other in their differences. California is one of the few states to take a proactive legislative approach to the problem of homophobic harassment in high school. The legislature passed the groundbreaking Assembly Bill 537, The California Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act, in 2000. This bill prohibits discrimination in schools based on perceived or actual sexual or gender identities. The District of Columbia, Maine, Minnesota, and New Jersey have also enacted laws that prohibit harassment and discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in school.
Unfortunately, as Ricky's experience demonstrates, these laws are not always enforced. Boys' homophobic harassment, sex talk, and predatory behavior have become so normalized that oftentimes adults don't identify it as harassment. Parents, teachers, school administrators, and other people who work with youth need to recognize these behaviors and hold them accountable, rather than turn a blind eye to boys who hurl the "fag" epithet. It's not enough to reprimand or discipline a boy for calling someone a "fag." To simply punish students who are harassing other students without explaining larger issues of power and inequality leaves them confused, angry, and unsure of what they did wrong. As the late educator and activist Eric Rofes wrote, we need to make our schools "safe for sissies." In doing so we can make them safer places for all boys.
*Names have been changed.
C.J. Pascoe is a postdoctoral scholar at the Institute for the Study of Social Change at the University of California, Berkeley. Her recent book on gender and identity in high school, "Dude, You're a Fag: Masculinity and Sexuality in High School" was published by the University of California Press. Her current research project entitled Living Digital examines how teenagers navigate digital technology and how new media has become a central part of contemporary teen culture.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
- The Imperialist
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
I thought that there are high instances of homosexuality in the sporting community?
I mean, what they get up with themselves in the shower.... my deities, it was disgusting. Those who profess being heterosexual readily partake in mock 'homosexuality', excuse being that they are comfortable with homosexuals. If you are 'comfortable', you taking part in the mock gayness is in itself degrading the homosexuals, and you do not really have to do it. It just gives people like me, where I just like being asexual, a hard time. I mean, Japan has a long history of homosexual acts before the Restoration, but I just don't like the idea. These people if they really are comfortable, will be able to dismiss homosexual pornography if it is shown to them.
If they get... 'excited', they are liars. If they start shouting to get it away from them, they are hypocrites. Me? They tried that on me. (Well, and heterosexual pornography). I am proud to say the only reaction to both of them was me minding my own business and reading the manga 'Pumpkin Scissors'. (I mean, I make it my rule that I will not partake in.. hanky panky if I am not married etc. etc.)
I mean, what they get up with themselves in the shower.... my deities, it was disgusting. Those who profess being heterosexual readily partake in mock 'homosexuality', excuse being that they are comfortable with homosexuals. If you are 'comfortable', you taking part in the mock gayness is in itself degrading the homosexuals, and you do not really have to do it. It just gives people like me, where I just like being asexual, a hard time. I mean, Japan has a long history of homosexual acts before the Restoration, but I just don't like the idea. These people if they really are comfortable, will be able to dismiss homosexual pornography if it is shown to them.
If they get... 'excited', they are liars. If they start shouting to get it away from them, they are hypocrites. Me? They tried that on me. (Well, and heterosexual pornography). I am proud to say the only reaction to both of them was me minding my own business and reading the manga 'Pumpkin Scissors'. (I mean, I make it my rule that I will not partake in.. hanky panky if I am not married etc. etc.)
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Greetings, The Imperialist. Welcome to the forum. I hope that you won't find us to be boring. I'm impressed that you know English so well. As an English-speaking American, I've never been able to learn even Spanish.
In the United States and other countries of the West, sports (or, rather, certain sports) have been misused to define masculinity. Nonathletic boys who have no interest in sports don't have the easiest time growing up in some countries of the West. For generations lack of interest in sports has been deemed to be "effeminate" -- which is, of course, nonsense (not to mention bigoted). Homosexual men have always participated in sports, just as they have participated in just about every other realm of human activity.
I'm now 60 years old; so, I have had the advantage of years of observation. I've noticed that the populations of homosexual and heterosexual men both have a range of superficial "masculinity" from physically rugged to less "masculine" -- in other words, not physically strong, voice not as deep, etc. There are homosexual men who are completely rugged without any trace of effeminacy whatsoever. Last year a friend of mine who graduated from high school the same I did decades ago told me that the biggest, strongest guy at his high school was gay. My friend even once saw him holding hands with another guy in one of the hallways of their high school. He was never on the football team. That was out of the question for that time. But he was never bullied for being gay, either. If anyone had tried to bully him, he would have knocked his block off. There are homosexual men who are bodybuilders and have perfect physiques; and there have been homosexual high-school, college, and professional football players. Most of them will not come out of the closet until they retire. I'm not defending homosexuality; I'm simply stating facts. These facts should be obvious to the boys mentioned in the online article above. Their ignorance is appalling.
On the other hand, there are heterosexual men who appear to be slightly effeminate because they're not athletic and may even have a feminine twang in their voices. I personally have known several such men. They definitely were not gay. They got married and fathered and raised children; and they were good fathers, too.
So, the point of all this is that stereotyping nonathletic boys as "fags" is absolutely ridiculous, not to mention unjust. No one likes to be stereotyped as being something that is not them at all, especially something that might be repellent to them. Incidentally, my wife taught high-school math classes for eleven years (from basic math to calculus). She, of course, had many "nerds" in her classes. (Just so I'm not misunderstood by anyone, I mean nonathletic boys who excelled in math or one of the physical sciences.) NONE of them had effeminate mannerisms, despite the negative stereotype that some people make of them.
In the United States and other countries of the West, sports (or, rather, certain sports) have been misused to define masculinity. Nonathletic boys who have no interest in sports don't have the easiest time growing up in some countries of the West. For generations lack of interest in sports has been deemed to be "effeminate" -- which is, of course, nonsense (not to mention bigoted). Homosexual men have always participated in sports, just as they have participated in just about every other realm of human activity.
I'm now 60 years old; so, I have had the advantage of years of observation. I've noticed that the populations of homosexual and heterosexual men both have a range of superficial "masculinity" from physically rugged to less "masculine" -- in other words, not physically strong, voice not as deep, etc. There are homosexual men who are completely rugged without any trace of effeminacy whatsoever. Last year a friend of mine who graduated from high school the same I did decades ago told me that the biggest, strongest guy at his high school was gay. My friend even once saw him holding hands with another guy in one of the hallways of their high school. He was never on the football team. That was out of the question for that time. But he was never bullied for being gay, either. If anyone had tried to bully him, he would have knocked his block off. There are homosexual men who are bodybuilders and have perfect physiques; and there have been homosexual high-school, college, and professional football players. Most of them will not come out of the closet until they retire. I'm not defending homosexuality; I'm simply stating facts. These facts should be obvious to the boys mentioned in the online article above. Their ignorance is appalling.
On the other hand, there are heterosexual men who appear to be slightly effeminate because they're not athletic and may even have a feminine twang in their voices. I personally have known several such men. They definitely were not gay. They got married and fathered and raised children; and they were good fathers, too.
So, the point of all this is that stereotyping nonathletic boys as "fags" is absolutely ridiculous, not to mention unjust. No one likes to be stereotyped as being something that is not them at all, especially something that might be repellent to them. Incidentally, my wife taught high-school math classes for eleven years (from basic math to calculus). She, of course, had many "nerds" in her classes. (Just so I'm not misunderstood by anyone, I mean nonathletic boys who excelled in math or one of the physical sciences.) NONE of them had effeminate mannerisms, despite the negative stereotype that some people make of them.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
- The Imperialist
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Well, technically, I am in a British Independent School, and if I am not proficient in the sue of English, I am kaput .
Hmmmm..... from the other perspective though. If one was to argue that these competitive sport (excluding martial arts because martial arts is developed precisely so that the man of the weaker demeanor can defeat the stronger, probably bullying, opponent) have roots in the male beauty, kind of narcissistic ancient Greek displays, can one say that actually, obsession with athletics is also an obsession with male beauty, and those who consider the words "male beauty" to be homosexual, those who are obsessed with athletics are inherently the real 'fags', while the non-athletes are of the oppostie?
Hmmmm..... from the other perspective though. If one was to argue that these competitive sport (excluding martial arts because martial arts is developed precisely so that the man of the weaker demeanor can defeat the stronger, probably bullying, opponent) have roots in the male beauty, kind of narcissistic ancient Greek displays, can one say that actually, obsession with athletics is also an obsession with male beauty, and those who consider the words "male beauty" to be homosexual, those who are obsessed with athletics are inherently the real 'fags', while the non-athletes are of the oppostie?
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Well, I'm still impressed.The Imperialist wrote:Well, technically, I am in a British Independent School, and if I am not proficient in the sue of English, I am kaput .
Needless to say, I have a lot of respect for the martial arts. I wouldn't say that admiring the male form is always a sign of homosexual tendencies or whatever. The problem is that a lot of people define "manhood" in the wrong way. At the risk of offending some of the members, there is a sense in which I am not against sports. (I am against certain negative aspects of the culture that is associated with certain sports.) But defining masculinity along the lines of athleticism is superficial. As far as I'm concerned, true manhood involves being personally responsible and being of service to others.The Imperialist wrote:Hmmmm..... from the other perspective though. If one was to argue that these competitive sport (excluding martial arts because martial arts is developed precisely so that the man of the weaker demeanor can defeat the stronger, probably bullying, opponent) have roots in the male beauty, kind of narcissistic ancient Greek displays, can one say that actually, obsession with athletics is also an obsession with male beauty, and those who consider the words "male beauty" to be homosexual, those who are obsessed with athletics are inherently the real 'fags', while the non-athletes are of the oppostie?
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
- i_like_1981
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Over in Britain the word "fag" is not often used to refer to homosexuals. It tends to be a slang term for a cigarette. Nonetheless, similar gay bashing terms are used to refer to weaker males here too and it seems to me these words are just used to humiliate and insult others without understanding their true implications.
Best regards,
i_like_1981
Best regards,
i_like_1981
Bernie Rhodes knows don't argue.
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
It's all ludicrous. As I pointed out above, some of the "stronger males" are gay while some (actually, many) of the "weaker males" are straight. There's no causative correlation between physical strength or athleticism, on the one hand, and sexual orientation.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
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Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Gay people care more about the way they look. Therefore, they exercise more often.
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- The Imperialist
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
The male body worship that orginated in Greece have a strong homoerotic sense to it, these people professing the show of sportmenship are actually homosexuals at heart, and have no right to see homosexuality as a wrong thing (as they are partaking in homoeroticism, and therefore make them natural hypocrites) and have no right to criticise homosexuality.
Martial arts is not about show, it is about the self, so one cannot say that it is homoerotic (if anybody tries to counter the above arguement)
I think this gets my view a little bit clearer.
Martial arts is not about show, it is about the self, so one cannot say that it is homoerotic (if anybody tries to counter the above arguement)
I think this gets my view a little bit clearer.
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Generally, I am in agreement with you. *thumbs up*
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Re: labeling boys as "fags"
There is no real reason why a boy should be labelled as gay or be referred to insultingly as a fag just because he doesnt play or has no interest in sports. Not only are there many gay athletes out there (its completely likely that there are many still yet or choosing not to come out), choosing not to play football or any other rough sport is nothing at all to do with sexuality or anything along those lines. Some people may just not want to take the risks, I saw the topic and transcript over in the football and soccer section called "Football causes brain damage", and the damage such sports can do to the head and skull is immense and results in serious trauma and problems. Perhaps the reason why nerds dont want to do these sports is because theyre well-educated on the inherent risks and wish to avoid something that they know will be bad for them.
I think its the refusal to take risks part that results in nonathletic students being labeled as fags as for some reason today's impressions of masculinity are linked to dangerous behavior such as, who can drink the most alcohol in one evening or how close someone can get to breaking the law and not getting arrested. Hate to say it, but the ones who are most sensible, the best young citizens, will get insulted if theyre not doing what is considered manly and possibly putting themselves at risks.
I like the odd drink, I do, and a casual game of soccer with friends ain't bad, but i dont push things too far as I know of the possible consequences and don't want to experience them myself. Sadly the same can not be said for certain other people i know of and one day they might well make the screw-up of their lives.
I think its the refusal to take risks part that results in nonathletic students being labeled as fags as for some reason today's impressions of masculinity are linked to dangerous behavior such as, who can drink the most alcohol in one evening or how close someone can get to breaking the law and not getting arrested. Hate to say it, but the ones who are most sensible, the best young citizens, will get insulted if theyre not doing what is considered manly and possibly putting themselves at risks.
I like the odd drink, I do, and a casual game of soccer with friends ain't bad, but i dont push things too far as I know of the possible consequences and don't want to experience them myself. Sadly the same can not be said for certain other people i know of and one day they might well make the screw-up of their lives.
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
I appreciate and agree with your comments, Donald. There are a lot of men who have no interest in sports, but are still very active physically. I'm one of them.
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." -- Oscar Wilde
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Go, Montana State Bobcats!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRq4_uxM ... re=related
Re: labeling boys as "fags"
Thanks. Its always good when people are not discouraged from being physically active because of past embarrassments or humiliations. Yeah, Ive read numerous times on this website that nonathletic students would gain more from not having to participate in team sports and its true, you know. PE should stay mandatory, I think, as many people nowadays are not seeing the benefits of exercise and not bothering with it at all. But what I dont think should stay mandatory in the curriculum are competitive sports and the old picking a team routine, you know, where the two top athletes in the class are told to select players from the class and it usually ends up with the less popular and athletic students getting picked last and then humiliated. No wonder some people choose not to bother staying fit at all once school is over. Those sorts of humiliations can have rather lasting effects. PE would be more fair to all if there was more of an element of free will involved in it.Earl wrote:I appreciate and agree with your comments, Donald. There are a lot of men who have no interest in sports, but are still very active physically. I'm one of them.
- i_like_1981
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
In my opinion PE should just be an optional subject for all students. It would be stupid to ban it as it would anger a lot of students who quite enjoy the thought of physical activity in their curriculum, especially sports. I don't like the sound of it being compulsory, as the fact is, there will just be some students who are not interested in anything physical and who would rather put their time towards working for subjects they feel are going to do them most good in life. It's important that people get exercise so as to let them lead a longer, healthier life but I have never classed physical activity or sports as educational in every way. And even gym classes in school would encourage bullying to some extent with certain egoistic athletes probably choosing to use the weight machines to show off their incredible skills and criticise others' performances, especially weaker students. There's nothing wrong with gym training. I've actually been to my local one tonight, as I usually do on this day of the week. I like to use the weight machines, rowing machines and the dumbbells they have on offer there but I don't have much use for the running machines as they're for those who'd want to lose weight, something I'm not intent on doing. I personally think it's best if less athletic students were allowed to improve their fitness well away from anyone who would be likely to criticise them for their lack of immense physical strength. It would encourage them not to be so cautious and nobody would be around to taunt or pressurise them. Going on my own to the gym is a way of doing this for myself more than a decade after high school ended and it's a heck of a lot better than having some bat stuck in my hand and thrown into a Spiel I really don't understand. Is that the way schools promote fitness for all students? If it is, they must surely not be using that word "all" seriously.
Best regards,
i_like_1981
Best regards,
i_like_1981
Bernie Rhodes knows don't argue.
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Re: labeling boys as "fags"
At my high school a PE credit was required (I think two out of four years required a PE class) but there was no "PE class". Playing a sport, being in the marching band (what I did), show choir, weight training, running, and a few other things all met the required PE credit. I think that system should catch on more in the U.S.i_like_1981 wrote:In my opinion PE should just be an optional subject for all students.
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