Introductions

[Earl]

Nirvana, I'm in agreement with you so far. Sports will always be a part of the culture of most societies, including our own. I have no problem with people voluntarily participating in sports. What I object to is forcing nonathletic students to play sports in mandatory P.E. classes that follow the traditional sports-centered approach. As I said in my post above, this wrongheaded approach to P.E. has fostered tension between school athletes and nonathletic boys, with bullying of nonathletic boys often the result (including acts of physical violence of the sort some of our members suffered when they were in school or continue to suffer as students). What is particularly objectionable is the phony claim that this old sort of P.E. promotes physical fitness for all students. The overwhelming evidence is to the contrary. So, as far as choice is concerned, historically nonathletic boys who were/are forced to take sports-centered P.E. had/have no choice. The real purpose of sports-centered P.E. (as opposed to P.E. programs that actually promote physical fitness for all students, including those who are the most physically unfit) has been to promote sports, not physical fitness. The boys who wanted/want to play a popular sport, such as football, didn't/don't need to be forced to take P.E. They wanted/want to take P.E. Those who insisted/insist upon sports-centered mandatory P.E. really didn't/don't care about the physical fitness needs of nonathletes. What they really wanted/want was/is to have a winning football team. Allowing nonathletic boys to opt out of taking P.E. would in no way have interfered/interfere with having a winning football team. I can give specific details to prove my point.

[Nirvana]

Nirvana, I'm in agreement with you so far. Sports will always be a part of the culture of most societies, including our own. I have no problem with people voluntarily participating in sports. What I object to is forcing nonathletic students to play sports in mandatory P.E. classes that follow the traditional sports-centered approach. As I said in my post above, this wrongheaded approach to P.E. has fostered tension between school athletes and nonathletic boys, with bullying of nonathletic boys often the result (including acts of physical violence of the sort some of our members suffered when they were in school or continue to suffer as students). What is particularly objectionable is the phony claim that this old sort of P.E. promotes physical fitness for all students. The overwhelming evidence is to the contrary. So, as far as choice is concerned, historically nonathletic boys who were/are forced to take sports-centered P.E. had/have no choice. The real purpose of sports-centered P.E. (as opposed to P.E. programs that actually promote physical fitness for all students, including those who are the most physically unfit) has been to promote sports, not physical fitness. The boys who wanted/want to play a popular sport, such as football, didn't/don't need to be forced to take P.E. They wanted/want to take P.E. Those who insisted/insist upon sports-centered mandatory P.E. really didn't/don't care about the physical fitness needs of nonathletes. What they really wanted/want was/is to have a winning football team. Allowing nonathletic boys to opt out of taking P.E. would in no way have interfered/interfere with having a winning football team. I can give specific details to prove my point.

Having recently graduated high school myself, i can confirm the P.E. system is not like this anymore, at least not where i went to school. Our P.E. was centered around activities not sports. This included jogging, sprints, sit-ups and the like. Occasionally we'd have a "free day" where we could do any activity we liked, ranging from sports to walking.

I am in full agreement of your post and I feel P.E. should serve to promote physical fitness and not build upon a football or basketball team for example. I do however think it should be mandatory seeing as how many of today's youth are obese or overweight. At the very least you should have to walk half an hour or so.

[Earl]

We are in agreement! I am aware that P.E. has been changed in some school districts, although the "old" P.E. does continue to exist in other districts. I have no problem with the traditional sports-centered P.E. being retained for school athletes and other students who simply want to participate in sports as an ELECTIVE with more innovative classes for nonathletes. We have no argument here. *thumbs up*

[HugeFanOfBadReligion]

Having recently graduated high school myself, i can confirm the P.E. system is not like this anymore

I'm still in highschool and I can confirm that the PE system is still like this where I go to school. Now, I will no longer have to take PE courses, but you are forced to take PE classes from grade 1 until grade 9, and the vast majority of it was sports centred. In grade 9, I had a teacher who had a significant bias against me by mid-semester. Why? Because I wasn't that great at sports. I wasn't inactive, I didn't talk back to the teacher, I came to class on time with my gym clothes and anything else needed every day, yet my teacher still picked on me individually (there were other nonathletic students he picked on as well), often making me run several kilometres in little amounts of time just because I couldn't catch a baseball that was travelling ridiculously fast. And this gym teacher was my science teacher on the previous semester, and I was his best student. He knew I was a hard working student who didn't cause trouble, yet he still had a strong bias against me because I wasn't that great at sports. So yes, sports centred PE is still in effect in most places, and it is still quite bad.

[Earl]

Your former gym teacher's attitude towards you and other nonathletic students is inexcusable and contemptible, and further illustrates the need for the reform of mandatory P.E.

[i_like_1981]

Yeah, it sure seems like you have some real idiot coaches/sports teachers over in the USA and Canada. Over here in the UK it doesn't really tend to be much of a problem with the teachers. I myself don't recall being harassed by a PE teacher or treated in any excessively bigoted way, although I hardly received royal-standard treatment from them and I rarely got noticed by them in PE classes. In fact, their inability to acknowledge my presence outside of taking the register was what encouraged a lot of acts of physical bullying against me in PE classes. A lot of the time the PE teachers would just drift off the scene when a game was started and that is generally when the harassment would start. A lot of the time, the perpetrators got away with any violent acts committed against me, but the cricket bat assault was one that did get noticed by them. The teachers did not supervise the classes enough, in my opinion, and under these conditions of inadequate supervision on the teachers' part, bullying will thrive. We may have less gung-ho teachers over here in Britain but many of the PE teachers I had didn't really do much of a job, just "leaving the class to it" once all was prepared. I call it incompetence and complacency.

If Nirvana returns here I'd be most interested to hear his comments on his school's attitude towards bullying and exclusion of students regarding sports and social status. So here are some questions for you to answer, Nirvana, which I'll see to upon my return to this board tomorrow: would you say a great deal of severe bullying occurred in your high school? Would you say students were heavily judged on athletic ability? Was high academic ability a source of mockery among other students? Were the teachers tolerant of the less physically talented students or did they not seem to have much care at all for their physical development? Would you describe your high school as being more sports-centric or academically-orientated? Were there distinct cliques of popular and unpopular students? I am interested to hear more.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[Nirvana]

would you say a great deal of severe bullying occurred in your high school?

I never witnessed a single bullying incident based upon athletic ability or something of the sort. Of course there were always fights between students and things but this mostly occurred between lower income students.

Would you say students were heavily judged on athletic ability?

Absolutely not.

Was high academic ability a source of mockery among other students?

Again, no. I graduated with high honors and a 4.6 GPA and I was never made fun of for that. Smarter students hung out with smarter people and didn't bother with less intelligent ones.

Were the teachers tolerant of the less physically talented students or did they not seem to have much care at all for their physical development?

Our teachers never really took notice of the less gifted athletes in our P.E. classes. Those kids pretty much just walked around or talked and the teacher left them to their own devices.

Would you describe your high school as being more sports-centric or academically-orientated?

There was a healthy balance of both.

Were there distinct cliques of popular and unpopular students?

As in every school, yes, but not to the extent where the 2 groups wouldn't talk to each other. Being part of the semi-popular clique, I guess if I had been a more unpopular figure this would probably have been much more pronounced to me.

[Earl]

Apparently, not all high schools are the same. But the point is that no one here is lying about his own experiences.

[Fat Man]

would you say a great deal of severe bullying occurred in your high school?

I never witnessed a single bullying incident based upon athletic ability or something of the sort. Of course there were always fights between students and things but this mostly occurred between lower income students.

Would you say students were heavily judged on athletic ability?

Absolutely not.

Was high academic ability a source of mockery among other students?

Again, no. I graduated with high honors and a 4.6 GPA and I was never made fun of for that. Smarter students hung out with smarter people and didn't bother with less intelligent ones.

Were the teachers tolerant of the less physically talented students or did they not seem to have much care at all for their physical development?

Our teachers never really took notice of the less gifted athletes in our P.E. classes. Those kids pretty much just walked around or talked and the teacher left them to their own devices.

Would you describe your high school as being more sports-centric or academically-orientated?

There was a healthy balance of both.

Were there distinct cliques of popular and unpopular students?

As in every school, yes, but not to the extent where the 2 groups wouldn't talk to each other. Being part of the semi-popular clique, I guess if I had been a more unpopular figure this would probably have been much more pronounced to me.

What planet is your high school located on?

Because it certainly doesn't sound like any high school on this planet!

Or do I have to be on acid before I can see your high school?

Perhaps I should hit myself on the head really hard and knock myself out unconscious to see your wonderful school somewhere out there in La La Land far over the rainbow!

It sounds to good to be true!

[Nirvana]

would you say a great deal of severe bullying occurred in your high school?

I never witnessed a single bullying incident based upon athletic ability or something of the sort. Of course there were always fights between students and things but this mostly occurred between lower income students.

Would you say students were heavily judged on athletic ability?

Absolutely not.

Was high academic ability a source of mockery among other students?

Again, no. I graduated with high honors and a 4.6 GPA and I was never made fun of for that. Smarter students hung out with smarter people and didn't bother with less intelligent ones.

Were the teachers tolerant of the less physically talented students or did they not seem to have much care at all for their physical development?

Our teachers never really took notice of the less gifted athletes in our P.E. classes. Those kids pretty much just walked around or talked and the teacher left them to their own devices.

Would you describe your high school as being more sports-centric or academically-orientated?

There was a healthy balance of both.

Were there distinct cliques of popular and unpopular students?

As in every school, yes, but not to the extent where the 2 groups wouldn't talk to each other. Being part of the semi-popular clique, I guess if I had been a more unpopular figure this would probably have been much more pronounced to me.

What planet is your high school located on?

Because it certainly doesn't sound like any high school on this planet!

Or do I have to be on acid before I can see your high school?

Perhaps I should hit myself in the head really heard and knock myself out unconscious to see your wonderful school somewhere out there in La La Land far over the rainbow!

It sounds to good to be true!

Not every high school was like yours fatman. Not all high schools conform to your warped views of a jocks vs. nerds environment .

[HugeFanOfBadReligion]

Not every high school was like yours fatman. Not all high schools conform to your warped views of a jocks vs. nerds environment .

I don't know if it's fair to say that it is Fat Man's warped views that not all schools are conforming to. Just the way it was worded made it sound as though you are saying that Fat Man wants schools to be like the hell he described attending during his years of secondary education. I don't think Fat Man wants schools to continue with a jock vs. nerd environment, but wishes that it would stop. I attend a school where this jock vs. nerd environment is in plain sight, and there is a school down the road from my school where academics literally come second and it is commonly known as a sports school. If you attend that school and have little athletic skill, you are a nobody and you have no place in the school nor do you have any good position in the social system. I'm glad I hadn't attended that school, but my school still does have some characteristics of that school to a lesser extent.

[Nirvana]

Not every high school was like yours fatman. Not all high schools conform to your warped views of a jocks vs. nerds environment .

I don't know if it's fair to say that it is Fat Man's warped views that not all schools are conforming to. Just the way it was worded made it sound as though you are saying that Fat Man wants schools to be like the hell he described attending during his years of secondary education. I don't think Fat Man wants schools to continue with a jock vs. nerd environment, but wishes that it would stop. I attend a school where this jock vs. nerd environment is in plain sight, and there is a school down the road from my school where academics literally come second and it is commonly known as a sports school. If you attend that school and have little athletic skill, you are a nobody and you have no place in the school nor do you have any good position in the social system. I'm glad I hadn't attended that school, but my school still does have some characteristics of that school to a lesser extent.

I didn't intend to make it seem as if Fat Man wanted schools to be like that, that's just seems to be the way he views them.

[Skul]

I've been pretty busy, but I'd like to say welcome to the forum, Nirvana.

Could you crop down your signature image to be within the forum regulations, please? It's just a bit too big.

§15) Keep avatars and signatures within forum regulations

Maximum signature image size is 600x200 px. Total maximum image size is 1MB (all signature images combined).

[i_like_1981]

Back when I was at high school in central London I probably would not have believed that there were schools out there whose students did not place athletic ability at a much higher level of regard than academic ability. It seems to me that although teachers will be sympathetic towards the more intellectually gifted yet socially isolated students (well, at least here in the UK), the other students will find it amusing to use these people as subjects of mockery for not being a part of the popular crowd and showing more of a flair for "square" things like learning and reading than "cool" things like sports and socialising. However, I did know even then that my school was on the shittier end of the spectrum and that somebody like me with an underdeveloped build, lack of interest in "cool" pursuits and more proficiency in academics was bound to be given a hard time, because that's just the way kids are. Most will grow out of this stage and learn to show more respect for intelligence and studying as they are, essentially, what keep society going. The continuation of society rests upon having understanding, educated and informed people to continue it with. However, some bullies will not, and will always have a contempt for anything remotely academic which will be branded as "uncool". Those are the ones who end up failing.

With high school over a decade ago now, I can accept the fact that not all high schools have bodies of students with nothing but contempt for unathletic, intellectual individuals, and I have always known that the schools I went to were rough, with a notorious reputation and low academic standing. However, I find it hard to believe that there would even be just one establishment that had absolutely no record of bullying relating to athletic ability or inability. Nirvana may well be speaking the truth but it just seems strange to me.

Best regards,
i_like_1981

[The Imperialist]

Good afternoon.

I have come across this website when I was trying to vent my anger against the jock culture by trying to find out what causes their stupid hypocrisy, landed myself on a wiki page on Jock (athlete) and voila.

I am currently what is considered a 'Sixth Form' in Britain, I am a proud Japanese (nationalist- talk about it if you wish, but I am a nationalist with a different flavour), I believe the 'cool' crowd should all be purged for insubordination to the glorious state, and those who know what it is, I am in the school combined cadet force. Gloriously Staff Sergeant, but sad that we cannot give 'army spirit' to insubordination, and general disrespect to the uniform, thinking it is 'cool' to dress down.

I love Wagner, anime, manga, light novels, visual novels (games) and dabble myself in marshal music.