Problems With This Website

[SportsGuy92]

Ever since since I joined this website I've often been asked questions to the effect of "What are you doing here? Can't you see we don't like sports and whatever you say will never change our minds? So go away." I feel like I'm beating a dead horse by saying this, but it's not the "I don't really like sports, and it's wrong when people are judged or made to feel like they're abnormal somehow because of that" part of this website that I have a problem with. It's the "sports are a total drain on society, and anyone who enjoys them is a drooling, moronic, bullying sub-human being who is worthless trash and deserves to die" part that I have problems with. There are many reasonable arguments against sports on here. But sometimes, I read something that makes me feel like how a Jew must feel when they read Mein Kampf. Those are the type of posts that are what caused me to join this forum, since I felt that sports and athletes were being overly stereotyped based on exaggerations or just plain lies. These are what some peoples' opinions are on here:

"All athletes are dumb, and they're good at nothing but sports"
There are some athletes out there who are truly dumb, but the majority are not. Yes, maybe sports aren't always the most mentally strenuous activities out there, but participating in them doesn't make anybody dumb. You'll find as many smart/average/dumb athletes as you would compared to the general population. For example Myron Rolle, a Florida State University football player earned a Rhodes Scholarship last year. Coincidentally, most Rhodes Scholars are athletes, as well as most of the high school students who are admitted to the American service academies (Military, Naval and Air Force). I've read the "stupid sports quotes" on this website, and yes, those were some very stupid things that were said by athletes. But those words could've come out of anybody's mouth. I don't know what else I can do to make some of you realize this.

"All athletes are gay"
Another untrue, unfair stereotype of athletes is that despite being involved in "manly" activities, they are only using it to cover up the fact that they are homosexual. Fitz301, who apparently is no longer an active member of this forum, said something like "everything about sports is gay, from that they usually involve playing with some sort of balls to that the most popular food items at sporting events are hot dogs or sausages". Also, his insults of choice were usually "fag", "homo" and similar terms. Another reason people think sports are gay is because they think of certain contact sports like football and wrestling as being used as an excuse for men to touch other. The people on here with the ideas I described are not only homophobic, they also have a sexual mindset stuck in the 8th grade (where they see everything as sexual somehow). And finally, there's the "gay" jersey for certain sports fans, which I have mentioned before. All of this seems quite hypocritical for a website that's largely about challenging society's traditional standards of masculinity.

"All athletes are rapists"
A big part of this, I believe, comes from rape cases involving athletes that get a lot of media attention. The 3 major ones I can think of are the ones involving Kobe Bryant, the Duke lacrosse team, and most recently, Ben Roethlisberger. Kobe Bryant, while he did cheat on his wife, did not rape the woman he had sex with. The Duke lacrosse case was brought about by a corrupt, politically ambitious attorney who wanted to appeal to black voters. And with Ben Roethlisberger, the woman he had sex with not only bragged about it to her friends, but has also has some mental health issues. So all signs are pointing to that he did not do it. When I think of a rapist, I think of a strange, lonely man who spends all of his time hoping to lure girls or women into having sex with him. Not the typical athlete.

"All athletes are bullies"
Some members of this website had difficulties growing up dealing with athletes who bullied them. I know that there is no way any of this can be justified. Maybe the culture varies based on schools, but in my time in school I have never known an athlete who could also be considered a bully.

There's also the whole "sports require no skill" thing, but there are entire other threads dealing with that.

Hopefully, I was able to help some of you think of athletes in a better way because of this. I don't expect anybody to start liking sports or want to hang out with athletes. I'm just trying to speak out against what I see as an injustice towards athletes that stereotypes a very large group based on a small majority of its members who have the characteristics I talked about above. Fat Man says things like, "all athletes should be ground up into lunch meat and fed to the homeless" or "I wouldn't care if a million jocks all ended up here" (showing a picture of a cemetary). Imagine if either of these scenarios came true. Think of all of the great people who would be eliminated and all of the great friends and family members who would be missed. I know I might sound repetitive sometimes saying these things but I just feel so offended by these comments that are way off base.

[Fat Man]

Ever since since I joined this website I've often been asked questions to the effect of "What are you doing here? Can't you see we don't like sports and whatever you say will never change our minds? So go away." I feel like I'm beating a dead horse by saying this, but . . . . .

You are beating a dead horse!

beating-a-dead-horse.gif (18.69 KiB) Viewed 2612 times

I rest my case!

[Sergey]

*sigh* at least you didn't say the "athletes tend to be smarter than nonathletes" bullshit this time. So Fat Man are you sure the Q could stand up to Beyonder.

[Earl]

SportsGuy92, I hope you understand that my comments are not intended to be disrespectful. As I've said before, clearly you're a nice guy.

Ever since since I joined this website I've often been asked questions to the effect of "What are you doing here? Can't you see we don't like sports and whatever you say will never change our minds? So go away."

With the exception of Sergey and dickfilthy, none of the members here want you to leave. You're welcome to stay as long as you like.

It's the "sports are a total drain on society, and anyone who enjoys them is a drooling, moronic, bullying sub-human being who is worthless trash and deserves to die" part that I have problems with.

Speaking for myself, I don't share the sentiment that sports are a total drain on society, etc.; but neither do I believe that boys who don't participate in sports are somehow deficient or inferior. This view of nonathletic boys is far more common than the extreme anti-sports view.

But sometimes, I read something that makes me feel like how a Jew must feel when they read Mein Kampf.

I know how you feel. I felt the same way when I read Patricia Cayo Sexton's The Feminized Male (in which she blames many social ills upon nonathletic males, demeaning all of them as supposedly being unmanly) and when I heard my former judo instructor (a white former university football player) say that only athletes were "real men" and that there was nothing wrong with the physically stronger bullying the physically weaker. This from an instructor in the martial arts, mind you.

Again, I've not believed in the "dumb jock" stereotype since I was in junior high.

"All athletes are gay"
Another untrue, unfair stereotype of athletes is that despite being involved in "manly" activities, they are only using it to cover up the fact that they are homosexual. Fitz301, who apparently is no longer an active member of this forum, said something like "everything about sports is gay, from that they usually involve playing with some sort of balls to that the most popular food items at sporting events are hot dogs or sausages". Also, his insults of choice were usually "fag", "homo" and similar terms. Another reason people think sports are gay is because they think of certain contact sports like football and wrestling as being used as an excuse for men to touch other. The people on here with the ideas I described are not only homophobic, they also have a sexual mindset stuck in the 8th grade (where they see everything as sexual somehow). And finally, there's the "gay" jersey for certain sports fans, which I have mentioned before. All of this seems quite hypocritical for a website that's largely about challenging society's traditional standards of masculinity.

Now I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. As I've told you before, this "athletes are gay" line is satirical, which means that it is not meant to be taken literally. I've also pointed out that you have said that many of your teammates refer to nonathletic guys at your school as fags. From a historic point of view, which group first started calling the other fags? The football crowd or the nonathletes? The answer is obvious. You're talking to a number of middle-aged men who grew up being constantly told that athletic prowess was the only standard of masculinity. Boys who were not good at sports were denigrated as sissies, despite the fact that athletic prowess has absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation. Did you read my post about the psychiatrist who claimed that a boy who has no interest in sports should be suspected of having homosexual tendencies? Can you imagine how badly such a boy sent to that mental-health thug would be psychologically damaged? You have no idea what it's like growing up with your masculinity constantly questioned and ridiculed. So, there are those of us who have used this form of satire to throw the false accusation of homosexual tendencies (which is frequently made by critics of this website) back into their faces. Again, I've not engaged in this rhetoric; but I think you've missed the point. And as far as the "Jersey of Shame" is concerned, it has been bestowed only twice upon members who were being abusive to those who weren't sports fans. And, finally, we're not "largely about challenging society's traditional standards of masculinity." We're just tired of the bigotry that is routinely levied at nonathletic boys and men by the sports crowd. This is not a "gay" website, as Samdaman claims. (Again, who's calling whom gay?) This website does not take a position on homosexuality. That's an entirely different issue. Some of us here are even politically conservative about homosexuality. Incidentally, isn't there homophobia in the NFL?

"All athletes are rapists"
A big part of this, I believe, comes from rape cases involving athletes that get a lot of media attention. The 3 major ones I can think of are the ones involving Kobe Bryant, the Duke lacrosse team, and most recently, Ben Roethlisberger. Kobe Bryant, while he did cheat on his wife, did not rape the woman he had sex with. The Duke lacrosse case was brought about by a corrupt, politically ambitious attorney who wanted to appeal to black voters. And with Ben Roethlisberger, the woman he had sex with not only bragged about it to her friends, but has also has some mental health issues. So all signs are pointing to that he did not do it. When I think of a rapist, I think of a strange, lonely man who spends all of his time hoping to lure girls or women into having sex with him. Not the typical athlete.

With all due respect, I almost don't know where to start. I know something about journalism because my sister worked as a journalist for many years and did investigative reporting when she was a newspaper reporter. If you think that the sports media is a reliable source of news, you're sadly mistaken. I will say without hesitation that the sports media is a sham and a mockery of journalism. Its bias exceeds even the political bias of the liberal and the conservative news media. I don't want you to take this personally, but just about every sportswriter and sports columnist seems to believe that each and every teenage boy who dons a football uniform is a hero. Hardly an objective point of view. I can pick up the sports section of just about every newspaper in the country and read the typical offerings of sports columnists. What I always find is nothing but mush. Really the sports media is not a journalistic institution. It is nothing more and nothing less than a propaganda mill whose intent is to brainwash everyone into becoming sports fans. You see, this is where the money is.

To get back to the issue of rape, like many people you seem to have misconceptions about rape. This crime is often not even reported. The victims are ashamed. They often are afraid of being raped again by the ordeal of pressing charges. It is the rape victim who is put on trial, not the rapist. Many people blame the victim. Your view of a rapist as a "strange, lonely man" is so wrong; but it's not uncommon. You need to do some research on this subject. There are different kinds of rapists. Did you know that most rapists are not strangers to their victims? Did you know that even elderly women and physically unattractive young women get raped?

I dare say that there have been instances of alleged rape (often gang rape) by college football players that you and much of the public have never even heard of. I'm firmly convinced that there have been coverups, such as the one that took place at Notre Dame University in 1974. Your view of this sensitive issue is based on the extremely biased sports media. Do you believe that the sports media would ever be sympathetic towards any young woman who claimed that she had been raped by a college football player? (Incidentally, if Michael Vick had raped a young woman instead of mistreating dogs, he probably wouldn't have spent a single day in jail.) Are you aware that statistics have shown that athletes accused of rape are far less likely to be convicted than nonathletes accused of rape? It's easy to see why. All that a defense attorney has to do is pack a jury full of sports fans, who constitute the majority of the population. Many sports fans are "star struck" and will automatically side with athletes who have been accused of crimes, regardless of the facts.

Again, you need to do some research. Do a Google search on "rape football players" or some variation thereof and check out the many listings. On the issue of criminality of athletes, check the website http://www.ncava.org ("National Coalition Against Violent Athletes"), which is one of this website's links. Do a Google search on its founder Kathy Redmond. You should also read Out of Bounds: Inside the NBA's Culture of Rape, Violence, and Crime; Pros and Cons: Criminals Who Play in the NFL; and Public Heroes, Private Felons: Athletes and Crimes Against Women by Jeff Benedict and Our Guys: The Glen Ridge Rape and the Secret Life of the Perfect Suburb by Bernard Lefkowitz.

"All athletes are bullies"
Some members of this website had difficulties growing up dealing with athletes who bullied them. I know that there is no way any of this can be justified. Maybe the culture varies based on schools, but in my time in school I have never known an athlete who could also be considered a bully.

I don't know if you read recent posts that showed that the only students who bullied Fat Man, Greencom, and our new member Geno were "jocks." They were bullied by no other students. By the way, Greencom did not say that "all" jocks at his high school were bullies. He said that not all the jocks were bullies, but that all the bullies were jocks.

You say that you attend a parochial high school. Perhaps your high school is not representative of other high schools in this country. Perhaps Columbine, which honored athletes above all other students and did not hold athletes accountable for their misconduct off the playing field, is far more representative than your own high school.

Here's another reading assignment for you: Nerds: Who They Are and Why We Need More of Them by David Anderegg. This book might also give you more insight about the issue of bullying.

Hopefully, I was able to help some of you think of athletes in a better way because of this.

You have done this yourself by setting a good example. In stark contrast to certain individuals whose usernames I won't mention, you have been reasonably civil and have shown that you are kind. By the way, machismo considers kindness to be a "feminine" and therefore undesirable trait. You actually agree with us about mandatory P.E., which historically has been a dismal failure for nonathletes.

I don't expect anybody to start liking sports or want to hang out with athletes.

When we were boys, the issue was never whether we nonathletes would reject athletes. Before I had even reached the age of ten, I sensed a social divide between athletic and nonathletic boys. It was the nonathletic boys who were rejected. Most of the football players at my high school and other schools in the district never socialized with anyone outside their own cliques.

I'm just trying to speak out against what I see as an injustice towards athletes that stereotypes a very large group based on a small majority of its members who have the characteristics I talked about above.

The problem is that there is often the injustice of those who have been hurt by individual athletes who are not held accountable for their deeds.

Fat Man says things like, "all athletes should be ground up into lunch meat and fed to the homeless" or "I wouldn't care if a million jocks all ended up here" (showing a picture of a cemetary). Imagine if either of these scenarios came true. Think of all of the great people who would be eliminated and all of the great friends and family members who would be missed. I know I might sound repetitive sometimes saying these things but I just feel so offended by these comments that are way off base.

I understand how you feel. I know of several personal trainers who would get their feelings hurt if they read these comments, but they would have to go out of their way to read them. Compared to the extremely outrageous preferential treatment routinely given to athletes by the media, we are nothing but fleas on a whale; but the fact remains that you're right about this. Fat Man was under a great deal of stress when he made these comments. I spoke out occasionally against them. Perhaps I should have spoken out more.

[Polite24]

I'd like to thank Earl for actually answering the original post.

Whenever Fat Man is presented with valid points he picks out one little part and tries to crack a joke. He'll then turnaround in another thread and demand you address every point he makes in a post.

[Earl]

Thanks for the compliment, Polite24. Your compliment is much appreciated.

[Fat Man]

. . . Whenever Fat Man is presented with valid points he picks out one little part and tries to crack a joke. . .

That's because you are a joke!

Sports is a joke, the worse practical joke ever played on humanity!

[Polite24]

You just proved my point. Thanks buddy.

[Sergey]

I'd like to thank Earl for actually answering the original post.

Whenever Fat Man is presented with valid points he picks out one little part and tries to crack a joke. He'll then turnaround in another thread and demand you address every point he makes in a post.

And I demand proof that 99% sports fans/players are good people.

[greencom]

Most jocks I ever met reinforce the dumb drooling stereotype themselves. Most of the fans I've ever met reinforce the mindless idiot stereotype themselves. I'm sorry if I offend sports fans. If athletes were the real men they say they are why don't they just ignore non-sports people instead of victimizing them? Yeah, it takes a real man to beat up on someone weaker! Again, if I've offended any sports fans or jocks, tough shit! I tell it like I see it. ( I mean that in a nice way jerks)
Greencom

[Ray]

I agree. I know it's not politically correct to say this but stereotypes don't materialize out of nowhere. There's always a grain of truth to them. Where there's smoke, there's fire, etc.

Most of the large, athletic guys I have rubbed elbows with tended to make a point of emphasizing their past football prowess --even when nobody wanted to hear about it --and described everything they encountered in football terms. They're almost always subtle or obvious jerks and widely disliked and avoided. They're high school bullies who've grown up and still enjoy making everyone around them miserable.

I work with one of these clods. This guy comes to work every day with stories of how he came out ahead in every confrontation. He always gets his way in department stores, with neighbors, police, etc. He never tires of bragging about his exploits. But I did get some benefit from our forced association: I learned where assholes come from. He occasionally entertains us with stories of how he shouts down people who complain about his loud talking and guffaws in the theater --while he's with his SON! By acting so agressively with his son present, he's teaching his son how to behave in public. So now I know where jerks come from --they're raised by big assholes. (or should I say JOCKS?)

[Katrin]

I wouldn't say all jocks are like that, greencom. In fairness to them, SportsGuy92 and Polite24 don't appear to reinforce the dumb abusive jock stereotype a lot of us believe in... however, Samdaman and Mike the pain train do. As with all kinds of people, you get nasty and nice sports people, but people here have obviously felt the nasty side of them more in their lives so that is why all sports people on here get treated with some contempt, regardless of their attitude to us.

[Ray]

Ever since since I joined this website I've often been asked questions to the effect of "What are you doing here? Can't you see we don't like sports and whatever you say will never change our minds? So go away."

With the exception of Sergey and dickfilthy, none of the members here want you to leave. You're welcome to stay as long as you like.

I agree. SportsGuy92 is a valued member of our community. By coming here every day, he gives this site validation and increases its popularity. The conflict that he generates keeps readers coming back again and again to see what happens and contribute themselves. Conflict is a vital component for interesting reading. All writing requires conflict. And the ironic thing is that, by providing conflict (even the low-grade, mild conflict that SportsGuy brings), he is accomplishing the very opposite of his intentions. Thanks SportsGuy92! Please continue your mild rants.

And your willingness to be our site pinata only increases your stature in my eyes.

[Sergey]

I love debating.

[greencom]

I wouldn't say all jocks are like that, greencom. In fairness to them, SportsGuy92 and Polite24 don't appear to reinforce the dumb abusive jock stereotype a lot of us believe in... however, Samdaman and Mike the pain train do. As with all kinds of people, you get nasty and nice sports people, but people here have obviously felt the nasty side of them more in their lives so that is why all sports people on here get treated with some contempt, regardless of their attitude to us.

I wouldn't say all jocks and fans are like that either, but I say MOST are! There are exceptions to everything.
Greencom