Here to have a civilized debate.

[Fat Man]

We should give them a chance.

Oh! I'll give them a chance alright!

I want to give them both a chance to come out of the football locker room, out from the musky locker room smell which I'm quite sure dulls the mind, and come out into the fresh cold night air and take in a deep breath, and look to the sky, and set their minds free.

I'm sure they're both decent guys, but they seriously need to get over their rigid authoritarian mind set.



This is what PE and sports is REALLY all about!!!

[Andy]

Thank you Earl for giving us a chance. I did read the football and the holocaust article you posted and found it very interesting, thank you.

Greencom,
I am in no way, shape, or form trying to convince anyone here to "see the light" I am simply showing that not all athletes are the bad people that many make them out to be. I do not view anyone here as inferior and I honestly believe that everyone is created equal. Even those who choose to flame me, that is your choice and I respect your choice. I still do not view those who flame as inferior. I believe that once a group of people begin to look at another group as inferior, that is when genocide occurs. I want to work to fight genocide when I graduate from college. And in fact this next summer my father and I are going to Africa to deliver over 100 bikes to a village in which many of the people here have AIDs. The nearest AIDs clinic is nearly 15 miles away and they must walk this distance every day. By supplying these people with bikes, they will be able to make this distance much easier. My father owns and adventure travel company and he recently upgraded our bikes. Which my job over this winter break is to assemble these bikes so I can earn some money to help pay for college. The older bikes (which are only about 8 years old, and in great shape) will be shipped to Africa to be given this clinic and I will be there to reassemble these bikes upon arrival.

Fat Man,
If it was not for athletics in college, many athletes would not have the money or motivation to attend college. The NCAA puts strict rules on GPA requirements for the team. The players must obtain good enough grades to be eligible to play. This motivates many players who love football, but their drive for academics is below average. The coaches in college are on a whole new level compared to high school coaches. They actually care about the grades we get. We meet weekly with our coach and on my first visit to see my coach I expected for him to want to discuss football. That was far from his mind, he questioned me on my classes and even asked me about my girlfriend and how she was adjusting to college. There are required study table sessions every night for all freshman and anyone who has a GPA under a certain mark. If it wasn't for scholarship money from football, there are many under privileged kids that would have no way to pay for a college education. And despite popular belief that the school funds all go towards athletes, this is a myth. All scholarship money is raised by a group of people who are all alumni of the college and many played for Montana State. And all other funds come directly from ticket sales. There isn't one penny of tuition payed by average college students that goes towards athletics. As far as being an authoritarian, I'm not trying to come off as one, I'm sorry if I am. But don't you think it is a bit hypocritical to say that we are trying tell you how you should be thinking, but then turning around and telling us how evil sports are. That is your opinion, and I am all for you having your opinion. I am explaining my opinion, and I do not wish to shove it down your throat.

On a side note, I did read the Galileo Affair this year, very interesting story. I wrote many papers on it this year and even did a few presentations. One of my favorite readings from my knowledge and community class.

[Fat Man]

Good evening Andy!

Oh! You're good!

OK! For one who's in sports, you're obviously very intelligent, I'll give you that.

Now then, let me fill you in on some more details. Okey Dokey?!?

Back in the 1970's from September or 1975 to about May of 1978, I had three years of college at NMSU, New Mexico State University in Las Cruces New Mexico.

I was majoring in Physics and Astronomy. I never completed my degree due to financial difficulties. I personally knew Dr. Clyde Tombaugh, the astronomer who discovered the planet Pluto. He taught at NMSU before he retired.

OK, in Astronomy 101, I had Astronomy Lab Friday evenings. I chose the Autumn semester because the winter constellations are my favorite. Because of the crisp cold nights, the "seeing" conditions are much better. I like the winter months for observing because I can view the Orion Nebula and the Pleiades Cluster.

We had two small observatory domes that were located on the edge of the track running field, and there was also a tennis court located not so far away.

Aye! But here's the rub!!!

The tennis court and the track running field were lit up at night most of the time, even during the winter months when nobody was using them! This would glare up the sky, making observations of the Orion Nebula and the Pleiades Cluster impossible.

So, sports was interfering with astronomical observations.

And then, the Aggies would sometimes have a football game going on at night, and the stadium was all lit up, well, we on those nights, could pretty much fucking forget it!!!

Also, back in the 1970s, a Physics professor or an Astronomy professor was paid about $32,000 dollars per year.

Ah! But the football coach was paid $86,000 dollars per year!

Sorry, but once again, Jimbo Bubbah Booey, academics trumps sports!

I have absolutely no use for sports, especially when it interferes with academics.

[greencom]

Andy,
Your plans for the people in Africa tells me you are a fine human being with a level of compassion that towers over most people including myself and I commend you and your father.
Your planned career in nursing seems a natural path for you. I did not mean to come on too strong in my post but sometimes I do that so other visitors to the forum to they know where most of us stand, it was not a personal attack. Having said that I have a problem with all this business with sports scholarships in college. As you said money is donated by alumni and ticket sales to provide scholarships to people with great athletic skills but often mediocre or worse scholastic talent. There are kids with good minds who want degrees but can't quite get academic scholarships and can't afford to attend college. These kids are much more motivated to learn and achieve than many kids coming in on an athletic scholarship yet the athletes are provided for and the smart kids are left out on their own, it's a double standard that has always burned me up, the greatest effort always go to the athletes. I will never understand how sports and colleges ever came together. As Fatman has said in the past they are sanctuaries of LEARNING , you know, EDUCATION. This country's obsession with sports is, I believe, a reason for our continued slide into lower and lower standards. That's what really bugs me about sports. The system is not fair to the kids that really belong in college, the ones that want to learn, not play ball. It's just my opinion, my deep down heartfelt opinion but just my opinion.

Greencom
Greencom

[Andy]

Good evening as well fat man,
Thank you for the compliments, coming from you I know they are sincere.
I've always enjoyed getting away from civilization and just looking up at the stars, now my astronomy knowledge is now where near the knowledge of yours. It has always been interesting, plus I love being where there are no lights and no civilization. So I feel for you when you had trouble getting away from the sports lighting. This last summer I was in the Galapagos with my dads company, there was about 20 of us on a yacht with a beautiful sundeck. At night the vessel would basically island hop, and during the day we would explore the uncharted lands and snorkel the beautiful ocean. But the beauty did not stop when the sun went down. Me and many of the other teens on the trip would sit on the sun deck when there was no sign of light. The view of the sky was epic, not a cloud in the sky. I have never seen stars so bright.

As with the case of salaries, I highly agree the roles should be switched. My sister is the most intelligent person, she is two years older than me, I have ever met. She was the valedictorian of her high school class with a 4.0, and received the presidential honors scholarship to the University of Montana (which is actually my school's rival) and continues to have a 4.0 in the honors college. Now she could have done anything with this scholarship and she chose to do elementary education. I absolutely agree that teachers should be paid more, they are the future of this country and the fact that someone with no college education whatsoever can get a job that easily pays more than a teacher is absurd. And athletes work hard, but not hard enough to earn the multi-millions they do in the pros.

On another side note (I seem to have quite a few of these): I can imagine your friend, Dr. Tombaugh, was a little bummed when he found out that they had decided to remove Pluto from the list of planets.

Greencom,
I think the example of my sister also applies to your post, she never was an athlete but she received a full ride. But I can understand your frustration, I am a non-scholarship athlete myself and see a few athletes come through that are great football players yes, but academic duds. But yet they are on full rides, now I know that if I'm patient, they will wash out eventually leaving their scholarships open. Now I was able to get a $1,000 small scholarship strictly for academics, all I did was email the school asking if there were any scholarships available. People would be surprised and the shear magnitude of random scholarships that are out there floating and all you have to do is ask. $1,000 is $1,000, I'll take what I can get. My dad had a friend who paid his way through college on small scholarships like this. My college actually does not have the number of scholarships that say University of Texas has for their football program. Our stadium only holds 15,000 as opposed to 100,000. So instead of 90 scholarship kids, we have something like 60, for the 105 kids on the team. I'm not complaining, I'll go all five years paying my way if I have to I just want to get education and do something that I enjoy. Just as fatman enjoys star gazing, I enjoy football. Everybody is different and we just have to except them for who they are.

Good night fellows,
Andy

[Agent 47]

(from page 3) - "but at some point you have to step into reality."

Oh - ok - no worries, happy to oblige you with a reality check -

Sports team members are 10 times more likely to be involved in rape -

RAWA-logo.gif (4.41 KiB) Viewed 1251 times

Q: Percentage of men who commit rape?

A: Answer

sports team members were found to comprise 20.2% of the men involved in sexual assault or attempted sexual assault even though they made up less than 2% of the campus population.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Percentage_of ... ommit_rape

(Thankyou to Fat Man for unearthing that statistic).

[Ray]

I am in no way, shape, or form trying to convince anyone here to "see the light" I am simply showing that not all athletes are the bad people that many make them out to be... And in fact this next summer my father and I are going to Africa to deliver over 100 bikes to a village in which many of the people here have AIDs. The nearest AIDs clinic is nearly 15 miles away and they must walk this distance every day. By supplying these people with bikes, they will be able to make this distance much easier. My father owns and adventure travel company and he recently upgraded our bikes. Which my job over this winter break is to assemble these bikes so I can earn some money to help pay for college. The older bikes (which are only about 8 years old, and in great shape) will be shipped to Africa to be given this clinic and I will be there to reassemble these bikes upon arrival.

Pretty smart. Three tax deductions produced from one business upgrade:

1. business equipment upgrade (cost of new bikes)
2. charitable donation (estimated value of old bikes)
3. trip to Africa (business trip/charity)

plus a bonus claim of benevolence which also promotes business. Way to go. I knew you weren't bad.

[Andy]

Dickfilthy,
Yes some athletes choose to rape, does that mean that all athletes are rapists? No absolutely not. As I said, judge the person by who they are, not by others around them. I would never rape a girl, let alone hit one. I am not a rapist, and neither is anyone on my football team.

Ray,
Please tell me you are not trying to say that the only reason I am going to Africa is for a tax deduction. That is about as far from the truth as you can get. I'm going to help these people as is my dad. The fact that you are taking what I'm doing and turning it around to try and make me look bad is just wrong. Why can you not accept the fact that I am who I say I am, a good person? My dad's partner has been trying to convince my dad not to do this because we will in fact lose money off of this, but my dad has stood up against his partner to tell him that we are doing this. I realize that you have a prejudice against football players, but to say that doing something for charity is wrong is stooping to a whole new level of low. My father and I had a heart to heart discussion today and we determined that going into the peace corp after I graduate from college will be a great move on my part and it fits my personality. I was blessed with so many opportunities in my life that I don't want to take anything for granted and I wish to give back. I hope that you can at some point come to realize that I'm going to Africa out of the goodness of my heart not for some Tax Deduction. And my father is the same way. I'm not getting the tax deduction, nor am I getting paid for this trip. Upon arrival I will be teaching a few select people how to repair and manage the bikes and these people will be given a job as bike shop workers.

If you wish to learn about the project that my father and I will be helping with, please go to this link: http://www.bicycles-for-humanity.org and watch the video.

Andy

[greencom]

Greencom,
I think the example of my sister also applies to your post, she never was an athlete but she received a full ride. But I can understand your frustration, I am a non-scholarship athlete myself and see a few athletes come through that are great football players yes, but academic duds. But yet they are on full rides, now I know that if I'm patient, they will wash out eventually leaving their scholarships open. Now I was able to get a $1,000 small scholarship strictly for academics, all I did was email the school asking if there were any scholarships available. People would be surprised and the shear magnitude of random scholarships that are out there floating and all you have to do is ask. $1,000 is $1,000, I'll take what I can get. My dad had a friend who paid his way through college on small scholarships like this. My college actually does not have the number of scholarships that say University of Texas has for their football program. Our stadium only holds 15,000 as opposed to 100,000. So instead of 90 scholarship kids, we have something like 60, for the 105 kids on the team. I'm not complaining, I'll go all five years paying my way if I have to I just want to get education and do something that I enjoy. Just as fatman enjoys star gazing, I enjoy football. Everybody is different and we just have to except them for who they are.

Good night fellows,
Andy

Andy, Your sister is obviously a brilliant woman who deserves her free ride, but the thought of a person with far less academic ability getting the same free ride for being good at tossing a ball around is totally insane to me. You have accepted this as just the way things are, I cannot, it burns me up inside that this travesty goes on. I can only attribute this BS to a nation of sheeple that sees nothing wrong with it. I see plenty wrong with it, thus my disdain for college and professional sports and it's fans. I DO NOT have to accept this crap and I never will. Now you know where my attitude comes from.

[Agent 47]

Andy - Please understand that when a particular whole section of society - sports team members - have a 10 fold increase in rape statistics compared to everybody else, then there is something seriously wrong with sport.

That statistic should be a red flag and set alarm bells ringing, instead of just taking a business as usual approach about it.

A 10 fold increase is more than just a statistical anomaly, a 10 fold increase is a sports team member driven rape epidemic.

There is something seriously wrong with sport.

And as Dr. Phil would say - "You can't change what you won't acknowledge."

[Fat Man]

Andy, I'm sure that it's all well and good what you're doing with the bicycles and all that!

But the people in those African villages need more than just bicycles so they can peddle 15 miles to the nearest AIDS Clinic. Many of them are so sick they're probably too weak to even peddle a bike.

They need more food, and why not vehicles for the clinic so they can go to the villages to treat those who are too weak to make the trip themselves on bicycles.

Ever thought of that?

Also, how about schools, and more teachers and more books to educate the children in those villages.

How about helping them to drill wells for clean water, and tools to work the land to plant crops once they have been well fed and have become strong enough to do their farming.

How about repairing their homes for them as well. There is so much more that needs to be done so that they can live like human beings, and get a good education, and hopefully rise above their poverty.

When they are well fed and well clothed and well educated, then the bicycles can be peddled around just for the pleasure and the fun of riding a bike.

But no!

I guess being a jock, even though you sound intelligent and well spoken, you're still thinking like a jock!

Bicycles! Good exercise! Uh huh!

Yeah! Bicycles! Like, that's going to solve all the world's problems!!!

[Ray]

Please tell me you are not trying to say that the only reason I am going to Africa is for a tax deduction. That is about as far from the truth as you can get. I'm going to help these people as is my dad. The fact that you are taking what I'm doing and turning it around to try and make me look bad is just wrong. Why can you not accept the fact that I am who I say I am, a good person? My dad's partner has been trying to convince my dad not to do this because we will in fact lose money off of this, but my dad has stood up against his partner to tell him that we are doing this. I realize that you have a prejudice against football players, but to say that doing something for charity is wrong is stooping to a whole new level of low. My father and I had a heart to heart discussion today and we determined that going into the peace corp after I graduate from college will be a great move on my part and it fits my personality. I was blessed with so many opportunities in my life that I don't want to take anything for granted and I wish to give back. I hope that you can at some point come to realize that I'm going to Africa out of the goodness of my heart not for some Tax Deduction. And my father is the same way. I'm not getting the tax deduction, nor am I getting paid for this trip. Upon arrival I will be teaching a few select people how to repair and manage the bikes and these people will be given a job as bike shop workers.

Andy

I'm just saying that your grand gesture to save the world, because of your adventure biking business, is about as generous as me shoving my broken TV into that big white charity box in the Walmart parking lot. Except I didn't brag about my charitable efforts on the internet.

Do you really think those people need you to teach them how to turn a monkey wrench? They're Africans not simpletons. Do you think Africans are too dumb to figure out how to screw a nut onto a threaded rod? Maybe so. Good thing you're going.

[Andy]

People of sportssuck.org congratulations you win, I will leave your site. I have found that no matter what I say you will always look at me in a negative light, with the exception of a few people such as earl. Despite what you say on your home page, most of you are unreasonable and intolerant. I know I am doing the right thing by helping the people of Africa with bikes. I may not have a billion dollars to fix all of their issues but I can at least attempt to help. If you watch the video from the link I posted, you will find that the bikes help the people in more ways than one. But I understand that no matter what I say I will be continued to be judged. Everything I say on here is gone through with a fine toothed comb to find any spec of something you can go after and exploit. I am helping the people of Africa and maybe if stopped spending all of your time bashing "jocks" you could actually do some good and help other people. Instead of looking for reasons to bash everyone, why not try and help them? Even if you do not want to help the people of Africa, why bash those who are doing what they can. I don't have enough money to give everyone in Africa cars, if I did, I would. But even if I could, as explained in the video a tank of gas for these people is as much as their monthly paychecks. The bikes if properly taken care of can last decades. Even after I leave Africa this time, it will not be my last. I have spoken with a person who works with the people of Namibia, which is where we are taking the bikes, and there is a good chance that after I graduate I will be going down there to volunteer my time as a registered nurse to help these people with all of their ailments, not just AIDs.

I know that in your hearts you are all good people, and if it wasn't for the fact that I am an athlete. I would most likely get a long with the people of this site just fine.

To Earl,
Thank you for being a kind hearted person and always having an inspirational story to tell me. Thank you also for not stereotyping jocks and looking instead looking at us as individuals.

I hope you all enjoy the new year and the years to come,
Andy

[Fat Man]

Andy, I'm merely asking a legitimate question.

The bicycles are fine!

But how about a couple of motor vehicles for the AIDS Clinic so the nursing staff can go to the villages to treat people who are too sick and too weak to peddle a bicycle to their AIDS Clinic?

That's all I'm asking!

OK???

No need for you to go off in an 8 cylinder Huff!!!

[Katrin]

Please tell me you are not trying to say that the only reason I am going to Africa is for a tax deduction. That is about as far from the truth as you can get. I'm going to help these people as is my dad. The fact that you are taking what I'm doing and turning it around to try and make me look bad is just wrong. Why can you not accept the fact that I am who I say I am, a good person? My dad's partner has been trying to convince my dad not to do this because we will in fact lose money off of this, but my dad has stood up against his partner to tell him that we are doing this. I realize that you have a prejudice against football players, but to say that doing something for charity is wrong is stooping to a whole new level of low. My father and I had a heart to heart discussion today and we determined that going into the peace corp after I graduate from college will be a great move on my part and it fits my personality. I was blessed with so many opportunities in my life that I don't want to take anything for granted and I wish to give back. I hope that you can at some point come to realize that I'm going to Africa out of the goodness of my heart not for some Tax Deduction. And my father is the same way. I'm not getting the tax deduction, nor am I getting paid for this trip. Upon arrival I will be teaching a few select people how to repair and manage the bikes and these people will be given a job as bike shop workers.

Andy

I'm just saying that your grand gesture to save the world, because of your adventure biking business, is about as generous as me shoving my broken TV into that big white charity box in the Walmart parking lot.

That was a bit harsh you know.
I hope you're not trying to make him out to be a bad guy - all he is doing is trying to make you understand that not all sports fans are intolerant morons who only care about themselves and improving their own situations.
Now I want YOU to go and check over the Forum Rules, Section 1, Flame Baiting. Do it now. You heard me!
Well what are you waiting for? Do it! That's an order. Das war ein Befehl!

I'm sorry Andy. But it seems your hopes of getting the sports haters to side with you by pointing out an example of a GOOD thing you (the athlete) has done for society will not become reality.
You are talking to hardcore haters of sports, people who not only have no interest in competitive league sports and P.E., but who have an undiluted HATRED of all elements relating to sports, including the common fans and people who enjoy playing the sports as a mere PASTIME, not for true competitive purposes.
Therefore your attempts to change their thoughts by discrediting their arguments
that ALL athletes are ASSHOLES for the sole reason they participate in sports
will ultimately not be successful.
Trying to change the thoughts of an entire board even in the slightest way, even one as small as this one,
is a HOPELESS venture.
As us sports haters will encounter somewhat fierce resistance with our views at any sports website,
you yourself shall encounter resistance here for the simple reason you like sports.
And unfortunately, that is just the way it is.
It cannot be changed.
Sports have placed an unhealable wound in some people which can be aggravated by so little as the presence of a sports fan.
That does not really apply to me, as I was never really affected in a serious way by school bullying or exclusion relating to sports or any other social factor.
Sure, I had comments made about my appearance but nothing that dealt an incredibly strong, traumatising blow to me on a physical or emotional level.
And usually, it did not relate to sports.
However, some people here have been through HELL in their earlier days for not participating so gladly in their P.E. courses and I have been left shocked by some of the things I have read on here. I believe these people have a right to hold an element of disdain toward the sports culture and followers as the same has been done towards them.
Life is a scale and sometimes it needs balancing out. That involves TWO sides, not just one.
Spite given tends to be given back in some way.
(I am sorry I am writing in such a weird way, forgive me, but my old posts were somewhat BORING and it sucks to be indistinguishable. I am not the only one to write in this style on here - another user did it, but I can't remember their name. I kinda like it.)
Anyways, have fun on here.
I bid you every luck in your endeavours on this board, trying to make some of the
BIGGEST haters of sport to walk the earth see the more desirable side of athletes
that is so very RARELY brought to light on here.
But hell, one momentary glance at the website NAME and the LOGOS we have should be enough
to make you realise what you're really up against.
Good luck.
Oh, and if that idiot Harold decides to bring his daft ass onto the scene
there are plenty of people round here who would be MOST pleased to give him a
RIGHT GOOD PWNING for his hateful yet hilariously-written letters!
The majority of athletes may be fine, I grant you that,
but a lot of the ones we hear from are just downright IDIOTS!
And it is because of the IDIOTS who show such hatred towards people unlike themselves
why this board was created! (I'm quite sure... that was probably the main factor... but I didn't make it, so I wouldn't know, would I?)
Best be going now. Be careful... you're now in enemy territory!
One slip-up and the proverbial "sniper" will be on your case in a flash!

Katrin